RWANDA'S ambassador to Ireland holds up both hands and starts counting. How many people do you think it took to kill almost a million in the genocide, using little more than machetes and knives?"
Say 50,000. Or maybe 500,000. No one really knows. The numbers might be meaningless now if it weren't for the fact that the aftermath of the 1994 genocide survives today as an angry political row in Ireland.
Both Fianna Fail and the Progressive Democrats have castigated the Government for supporting the Rwandan government which, they allege, is backing the rebels in eastern Zaire and is therefore implicated in massacres - the word "genocide" has been used rather loosely - of Hutu refugees there.
The refugees are all that remain of the vast populations which filled camps along eastern Zaire and Tanzania from the time of the genocide to late last year, when the rebel offensive began. Whereas 1.6 million refugees returned home, several hundred thousand others fled eastwards, ever deeper into the Zairean jungle.
Depending on whose side you take, the refugees now appearing out of the bush south of Kisangani are either hapless victims of a humanitarian disaster, or the worst of the perpetrators of the genocide. The truth is probably a mixture of both; those most culpable had greatest reason to flee, but they probably also dragged with them families, friends and other innocent refugees.
The ambassador, Mr Zac Nsenga, yesterday put Rwanda's side of the argument to the Tanaiste, who so far has firmly backed the Kigali government. "We should not be dragged into what is happening in eastern Zaire. No one has evidence that Rwanda is involved with the rebels. If they have, let them bring it forward." Mr Nsenga said afterwards.
In three years, we have not taken revenge on those involved in the genocide, so why should we do it now? Just because we sympathise with the rebels doesn't mean we are involved."
Mr Nsenga said he believed many Irish people are being misinformed, and he has invited both Fianna Fail and the PDs to send delegations to Rwanda and witness conditions there.
In response to concerns about standards of justice within Rwanda, where over 100,000 people are imprisoned without trial, he said major improvements are under way. The majority of prison files have now been processed and those charged are ready for trial.
"Prison conditions have been, improved. More than 300 investigators have been appointed to screen cases and weed out less serious offenders who could be released early," he said. However, the ambassador was unable to say when the promised early releases might start.
Mr Nsenga said the process of healing Rwandan society was well advanced. He pointed to the appointment of a former refugee as the junior minister for integration the incorporation of 4,000 soldiers of the old regime into the Rwandan Patriotic Army, and the installation of former soldiers as chief of the gendarmerie and deputy chief of the army.
Mr Nsenga expressed regret at the outspoken criticism of his government by the director of GOAL, Mr John O'Shea. The manner of GOAL's departure from Rwanda last autumn was "very poor", he said, and it was unlikely the agency would be invited to return.
During his visit - Mr Nsenga is stationed in London - the ambassador also met representatives of Concern, Cairde Rwanda and ESB International.
